I think you would be providing an invaluable service to many new teachers. While many teachers seem to be able to manage a classroom intuitively, most have to think our way through it.
You can’t teach effectively unless you can get them settled into ‘listening’ mode.

I’d definitely be interested in what you have to say. I’m always looking for new CM tricks and techniques. Looking forward to it!

Here’s why I don’t talk about classroom management:

It’s highly individualized, both to me and whatever class I have that year. My classroom management challenges are ordinarily limited to a few students who have SEVERE problems brought on by their life situations, disabilities, or incredibly poor parenting. I feel it would be a violation of their privacy to talk about those particular issues in a public forum.

Secondly, many of my management problems are because there are students in the general ed classroom who frankly don’t belong there. “Least restrictive environment” is often not the best idea for anyone involved, including the student or their classmates. I don’t talk about that much because it’s not politically correct, and I don’t yet have tenure.

Last, anything I could say, Harry Wong said it better. That doesn’t mean that you couldn’t say it better, too. Or that you can’t say something different/better than Harry Wong.

Two things.

First, thanks. I think you’ve unblocked me. I’ve not had a lot to say on my blog for a couple months now. Nothing’s hitting home. Classroom management is one of the topics in which I am most interested. I spent two weeks with my undergrad teachers-to-be on it. And I learned from experience working my way through the system in the very diverse schools in South Florida — from the uber-privileged to the inner city.

Interestingly, my first EVER post on LeaderTalk was about discipline from an administrative perspective.

Second, as to why I’m not talking about it (can’t speak for anyone else) I guess I figured it was something that interested me but not necessarily anyone else. After all, if you’ve made it to the administrative level surely you’ve figured out classroom management. (This, of course, begs a bigger question of who I’m blogging for, but that’s for another post.)

Anyway, as I have a pretty good idea of where you stand on classroom management, I can say that you and I work with students in much the same way.

I’m looking forward to putting together some blog posts on my philosophy and experience in this. Thanks for the inspiration.

I’ve talked about it a little, but being a relatively new teacher I’m still trying to personalise my own approach. What I’ve used as my classroom management strategy is based on what my Head Teacher has taught me – her classroom is well-managed, so it seemed an excellent starting point.

As I personalise and clarify my own management style, I’m sure I’ll post more.

As to the market for a classroom management tutorial – it’s everywhere. I suspect the lack of understanding of how to manage a classroom is the single biggest contributing factor to people leaving the profession. New teachers that walk in to a classroom without a strategy that will work are likely to fail.

Speaking for myself (and for whom else could I speak?), the market exists. Looking forward to the 31 maxims. Heck, right now, I’d be happy with one. I don’t know what I can really change at this point in the year, but I’m already thinking about what I’ll do differently next year.

Sadly, I think you need the right combination of effective management skills AND teaching in one of the most unthinkable teaching environments ala Ron Clark teaching in an inner city school.

Any other environment, and you’re relegated to a tiny spot on the “education” shelf next to Mr. Wong’s first 100 days.

you teach in a predominantly white, mid- to upper-ses district where a threatened phone call home is all the muscle you need?

I teach in the upperest-class public school in the Northeast, where the phone calls home are answered, fairly often, by the “help.” Management isn’t just an issue for the great brown unwashed masses, m’friend.

But the word “management” gives me a touch of the uh-oh feeling; to me, pinning your management success/failure to your ability to keep the kids busy bell-to-bell (do you have bells in Californy?) smacks of a fear of downtime, of letting your guard down a little when appropriate. My “management” style allows for that; there are days when the Future Oligarchs of America are so worked up about something (a kid’s been injured in a car wreck; the school’s full of cops and nobody knows why; whatever) that taking a little time out to let them get it all out of their systems is the best thing in the world for our collective sanity. Huck Finn‘s lasted 120 years; it’ll still be there tomorrow.

I sat through a five hour presentation on differentiated classroom management a few months ago and it left me depressed. This woman suggested what basically amounted to tricks with smoke and mirrors in order to hold kids’ attention (for example: if a kid is bothering you, start pacing and talking to yourself so s/he thinks you’re crazy!). If you need to resort to that, and your personality isn’t enough to be genuine and mature with a group of teenagers, you might want to rethink your career path.

I’m looking forward to reading your stuff on management, though, because I figure I’ll get at least a little out of it. Bring it.

I second what Jackie said.

And I have a request.

Right now, I’m in bed with the flu. The I’m-keeping-a-chart-of-how-often-I-take-Tylenol-because-I-can’t-remember flu. The I-don’t-have-the-energy-to-lay-on-the-couch-and-watch-a-movie flu. (I’m kinda surprised I think I have energy to write this.)

I was out on Friday. Apparently, my students were little devils. Unless I make a miraculous recovery in the next couple of hours, I’ll be out again tomorrow.

Any advice about how to address their misbehavior when I make it back? And any clues on how to motivate them to do the work while I’m out? (Not that I can really do much at this point…)

I agree with a lot that has been said in the comments, but I also think there’s one more element that specifically talks to why teachers don’t blog about classroom management.

privacy.

There is a lot to be said for blogging about general techniques about how to keep a classroom running smoothly, but I think discussing a classroom which isn’t running smoothly is problematic. And that’s when you see the flip side of classroom management — what doesn’t work and why.

Because to get to the heart of specific problems/incidents requires details (about the student, the student personality, your school and it’s policies, and your teaching style). Context. And to share that on a public blog that your students can find is in bad form – no?

With that said, inspired by this post, I just typed up a list of notes I took from a veteran teacher on classroom management that I think is quite good — at least when working with students in my particular school.

http://samjshah.wordpress.com/2008/03/02/71/

-Sam Shah

I think part of why we don’t hear about it more is that when it’s going well, we want to focus on the teaching rather than the management, and when it goes poorly (this year I’m getting close to 2 dozen referrals – that’s an order of magnitude larger than I had last year) we don’t want to publicly expose what we perceive as the fruits of incompetence.

There are excellent management resources out there. I’m sure you’ve mentioned Fred Jones. Everyone knows Harry Wong (though my take on him is that it doesn’t click until *after* you actually do it). And the one that made the biggest difference for me was Rick Smith, from whom I learned about all the stuff you can’t take for granted when you walk into a classroom.

There is room for more, though. For all the good advice available, there are lots of teachers who struggle with this every day…

I work like the dickens the first 6 weeks of school to show the kids who is in charge. Most years, they fall into line, but occasionally, I get a student who wants to be the boss. I have one this year and at the end of the third quarter, we are still going head to head, even after a parent conference.

On Friday, I had a visitor to my class, and I wasn’t in the room as I had taken 4 kids to another room in the next hall over, to set up a video camera. I met her as I came back to class and she asked the guide, “who is the teacher in there?” The guide pointed to me, and said, “she is and that’s how good she is, she can leave the class and they continue on like she’s still there.” Made me feel pretty good. But, it has taken lots of hard work to get them to that point. My senior class? Hah, I can’t leave them for a second or they will destroy one another and my room.

I am your market.

I wish more people would write about specifics. All the advice that I get, online, in the faculty room, is too general for that moment when the student has just Done Something and I don’t know what to do.

For example, they told me my first year “make it clear who’s in charge in the first few weeks and don’t relax until second marking period.” Ok, sure, that might work for you, but um, how do you do that? You can’t explain it because it’s too individual? Well, that’s a ton of help to me. Thanks guys.

I agree with Christian. The longer I’ve taught the more valuable I see having transparency in what I do.
1) Maybe its the movies and the media, or just societal norms, but making mistakes is both scorned and denied to the point that we’ve skewed kids understanding of it. So many students are scared to try anything new. I not only point out my mistakes, I remind students of current events that point to mistakes others have made. An all-star receiver that drops a sure winning touchdown (but the receiver is still revered as being a great player), the various celebrities, some of which are extremely talented at what they do, blowing a line to a song or play. I use Barbara Streisand of all people as an example of someone that is very talented, but that is so scared before she goes on stage she throws up sometimes.

2) I also think it is important to talk to students about how to react when they make a mistake. I get the class rolling on the floor by making a mistake and then acting extremely embarrassed and running out of the room with my hands covering my face and a look of terror in my eyes. Then I return and we discuss my reaction. Did any of them suddenly think I was a total dweeb because I got the wrong answer to the math problem IN FRONT OF THE WHOLE CLASS!? Some kids laughed at my mistake … does that mean it struck them as funny? Or does laughing mean they think I’m a total screw-up and they hate me and they’re going to tell everybody and nobody will want to be my friend? I teach upper elementary so these examples are geared to that level … but you get my point.
When I have these discussions with my students you can see the little gears spinning in their heads and the looks of acknowledgment and relief on some faces … they have never thought or talked about this stuff and … well … I think we should remember to do so … its important I think.
Brian

Here is my attempt to address Penelope’s question above, about how to individualize your classroom management.

It is admittedly short on the specifics she asks for – I tried to provide more of a road map for problem solving, since that will apply in every situation she finds herself in, rather than one individual one.

TMAO: There is a part of me that greatly respects your desire to “call BS” on any/all of what I wrote earlier. Anytime we take a unique experience and try to use it as an umbrella missive for the rest to consider, or try to take a universal and skin it down into a very unique setting that may only come around for a handful of us, and the “BS” call has to go out.

And I’ll also echo your “Once again, there is a clear difference in the way things play out across different communities, and we do well to not forget that” follow-up.

Been there, seen that…in real time.

After having had the pleasure of teaching HS students near the Minnesota Ave Metro stop in Anacostia (the ‘other’ other side of the river from D.C., and not the one with cobblestone streets, in case you get the least bit confused) — and receiving the opening day nickname of “Slim Shady” for being one of 4 non-black/Dominican members of the school (kid or adult) — I can say that I’m not taking the “call BS” call-to-arms response too personally. Oddly enough, found the same dynamic going on when teaching in New Mexico in a town evenly divided (not a lot of unification going on) by a 30/30/30 split between Navajos/Chicanos/Anglos, too. I also found it when I was not-so-pleasantly called a “gaiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiijin” by finger-pointing train riders as I stumbled my way through teaching in Japan, too.

You see, I shed sensitivity to that “you don’t know what you’re talking about” reaction ages ago, even if I teach in a school placed in the other end of the socio-economic spectrum at this point in my career.

You rightfully wrote:

“There’s no need to get in a pissing contest about who teachers in rougher environments, but in places where CMC is the most salient, assumptions like this one are less than helpful.”

…and yet, that statement of yours came on the very heels of you first establishing:

“Walk on in to a west Oakland classroom armed with nothing more than your all too easily acquired title of “teacher,” act as if the authority vested in that title is a given, and see how far that all goes.”

“[P]issing contest” or not, “call[ing] BS” or not, what does a young teacher or teacher-to-be need in their opening days/years? This is what I’m most curious about, my friend.

I’m guessing that — for you and me both — it comes down establishing the following distinctions in terms of the way this CM conversation can spin:

1. The universal issue of classroom management that plays well in ANY/ALL situations. While this option surely misses a few edge-details that can’t be accounted for no matter how many pages the new-teacher training manual might offer, it is the backbone of a long career…and frankly a heck of a lot more zen than prescriptive when you look closely enough at it.

2. The context-specific issue of classroom management that is unique aligned with neighborhood/classroom A (vs. neighborhood/classroom B, taken to infinity). This option has as much to do with the culture and administration of the specific school than it does with anything that can be discussed via a blog comment thread or via a teacher education program at the university-of-the-day.

Your “new three r’s” seems to speak to point 1 above.

And if so, I’m there with you, flag in hand. I’ll even go so far as to say that the first two (rigor and relevance) are only able to be in play when relationships are established…and legitimately so. Sure, you can force/fake the first two for awhile, but over time: no relationship, no play, no matter how well you re-tool your worksheets.

Have I seen first-hand the following which you rightly ended your response? Sadly, many times over:

“As a sad and unfortunate rule of thumb, the poorer and darker the kids, the less it is a given.”

I also know that the ONLY variable in that sentence (and well-timed ending statement) of yours that any of us can universally work with is:

“…the kids…”

This is why I have zero problem with you “call[ing] BS” on whatever assumption you may have had about what teaching experiences/settings I’m drawing from to make my earlier point(s). It’s all good.

And it’s also why I’m pretty kosher with the idea of “relationships” being the anchor of your “new three r’s”, too. At the end of the day, the ONLY reason ANY kid has taken me seriously in the classroom — rich or poor — is because I never fail to validate their vital role in that classroom.

I do appreciate your take on the “because you need to validate yourself” comment, but man, I never, ever, ever worry about that being an overt/intentional act on my part.

Unapologetic, down-deep mindset? Maybe.

But never some “write this down in your new teacher journal and try it out one day when you find out the kids don’t care that you love math/English/defensivedriving” CM rule.

Never did. And never have.

I’m curious, TMAO, about one more thing.

Do you really think that 90% of the effective CM tactics YOU’VE discovered over the years that work for YOU is something that you could have actually been taught?

OR did you find out that you:

a) had to just suck up the tenuous learning curve in real-time,
b) have the audacity to be there the next day over and over again, in spite of the best the kids could throw at you when you hadn’t gained their respect yet, and
c) respect the hell out of every one of your students in the process as much as you did for your subject-of-choice?

Just curious.

PS – I know you are an English teacher, so I beg your forgiveness for the egregious typos above (“didn’t not…!??” Ugh.) I plead fatigue and stupidity…

H: Baxter got you to look, didn’t he? (And note his blog address?) Perhaps there is a bit of wink, wink, nudge, nudge going on with his 180 degrees list there? Maybe?

Neal: No worries. Represent or misrepresent, it’s all good either way. And I don’t have a savvy enough red pen that is clever enough to mark up your comment through the computer.

Baxter: Amen to #4. Unless you have to change your mind. But as long as you write, “Unless I change my mind”, on the board, it’s all cool with the kids who are paying attention, and good enough for the lawyers representing the kids who weren’t.

Christian,

It’s a little sad that you allowed my use of the collequial to take on such reams of personal meaning. I called BS on an assertion, not the validity of your entire career. My reference to west Oakland was used to support my own assertion, not undermine the lack of necessity around miteration competitions. You agreed, and yet miterated still, in italics, bold, and parenthetical asides.

You provide a dichotomous way to structure a discussion of classroom management and culture (CMC): 1) the zen of universality and the 2) school specific details that don’t go anywhere.

No thanks.

There are clear principles behind effective CMC such as the ones Dan’s working on, principles that must go beyond “relationships” to be effectively applied on anything that looks like a wide scale. These are things that can be taught and learned. That folks badly teach poor principles badly to new and beginning teachers does not contradict this. At the same time, these principles must, must, must be informed by local conditions. Teaching prep and our discussions of it are far too general, far too disconnected, and far too unspecialized.

So yes, I do believe CMC can be learned, and yes, I do believe actions taken in that regard — whether we speak of building class culture or validating oneself in any regard — must be intentional.

Sigh, do we really want to go here? Look at TMAO and Christian arguing. Seriously, I’m willing and I do share stuff on my blog, it’s just not all over the place. I worry about confidentiality. Not mine, but spreading stuff around about my kids that if they found the blog, they’d get?

But, I don’t feel like my reflection posts have been that great lately. People liked them originally because they were “real” and honest. I tried to do tricks like week in a sentence stuff and microblogging, and I think I’ve lost my narrative voice, so it all sounds like marketing bullet points.

Frankly, I talk about all the Web 2.0 stuff I’m doing in the class because, well, I teach computer prep. I do try to talk about management considerations from time to time. One of the most popular PD classes in the district is on classroom management in a computer lab (middle school teacher does that one) so I know it’s a big concern.

More on the privacy thing:

My first year had a conflict between student X and student Y that would make a great classroom management parable, except an IEP was involved and it’d be illegal to talk about it.

Then there’s student Z from a different year, for whom an entire book could likely be written. Student Z got an IEP the year after I taught; I’m not even sure what the legal ramifications are there.

My stint at in-school suspension led to quite a few illustrative stories, and I can’t talk about any of it.

So yeah, being specific rather than vague is hard.

PRESCRIPTIVE: 1st offense: non-verbal warning. 2nd offense: verbal warning. 3rd offense: timeout. 4th offense: reflection essay

Wouldn’t life be much easier if this could be imposed with a straight face? I can’t tell you how many classrooms I teach in that have a similar note/poster/whatever on the wall (usually right next to the call-Security phone). And I walk past those classrooms during non-instructional periods, and I hear those teachers screaming at their students.
Right now, in the room next to where I’m typing this, there is a staff member who keeps threatening the students in her study hall with an increasingly ridiculous list of punishments. Right now, there is a debate going on about how to punish students who don’t do their summer reading assignments. Right now, school is too much about punishment/reward and not enough about education.
TMAO: What’s “progressive discipline”? How does it differ from the prescriptive solution?

5. Use humiliation to taste.

It does say “to taste.” Sometimes I develop a taste for it.

The hardest part about teaching is finding something that’s to your personal taste as well as effective. If a student is belligerently defiant, humilation works pretty well.

I guess Benjamin is serious. That’s unfortunate.

There are lots of ways this turns bad in the long run. If you’re really humiliating people, you’re making enemies. Not really the goal of most teachers. Not really the way to change behavior in the long run.

You get what you want in the short term (I guess) but you haven’t addressed the root cause of the problem. If they’re talking over you there’s a fair chance you’re not saying anything worth listening to or you’re not saying it in the right way.

TMAO: Thanks for taking time to further detail your “progressive discipline system” and what underlies your overall approach to classroom management. Truly appreciate it.

Looking at the 5 “key learnings” you shared, I can’t find fault in any of them in terms of what I can tell (from reading your own blog and comments here) about the specific school setting you experience every day. Additionally, knowing that these 5 “key learnings” (laid out in your own new teacher training program) framed your own thinking as a 1st year teacher also helps me see where you’re coming from.

As I look at the list, however, I can’t help but think that ALL 5 are central to ANY decent human interaction or organizational structure or client service, let alone schools:

1. Prevent potential obstacles or problems first; punish or do damage control as a last resort.
2. Assume your team can behave appropriately, esp. when procedures and goals are clearly defined and responses are consistent.
3. Use non-verbals as a vital part of your overt communication style; likewise, be aware of how your unintentional non-verbals affect/influence audience, team, client, etc..
4. The culture of any organization needs to reflect the mission of said organization; better yet, it needs to be consistent with all messages/marketing, too.
5. Procedures (i.e. clear processes that drive vital and ongoing operations) over rules (that are reactionary and assume the worst) is always a more effective choice, too.

Again, no fault with anything on your original list. At the same time that I respect the list you shared, TMAO, I’m not sure that any of this is unique to education/teaching. I definitely do not think it is unique to one type of school or school community, either. I haven’t found a school I’ve ever been part of where that list isn’t vital to success.

Any half-way decent business in this day and age expects such a framework coming out of the gate if they want to keep any employees around for very long beyond simply offering basic carrot-on-stick compensation strategies. Same for keeping their clients or ‘partners’. And every ‘leadership’ book you or I could find on the bestseller list today — whether they use Winnie the Pooh, Jeff Gordon, or Jesus as the framing metaphor — uses a similar set of branding principles to articulate how to successfully manage a team.

Additionally — again echoing that I respect the list — I’m not sure that any of this is unique to formal “teacher training” programs, nor should it be.

That doesn’t suggest that the principles have no merit. They do. They’re just not precious cargo for new teachers alone, and certainly not necessary to become a successful teacher no matter how many teacher programs you attend in your career.

I’ve knocked off the obvious education program benchmarks with my bachelors degree along with 2 formal student teaching experiences; I’ve knocked off a prestigious teaching fellowship for young educators; I’ve knocked off a graduate degree in education; I’m married to a principal who is an expert at guiding her teachers on behalf of the students; I’ve worked in more than 7 schools spanning inner-city to Ivy-prep, public to charter to private, US to international; and I’ve spent several years as a business leader, consultant & speaker serving educational clients (i.e. schools and districts) across the US and globe. In other words, I live/breathe/eat this “teacher” and “school’ stuff…and expect to for the next 30+ years of my career/life.

Not once, however, have I ever received a formal document or program (etc.) that said, “Here’s how you manage the classroom” that had a snake-shed-skin’s chance of living up to even a single school quarter of “in the trenches” experience. NOT once.

And yet — here’s the kicker — I’ve come to the very same conclusions you have via the “reals” (on-the-fly experience ripe with learning curves), paying attention to leadership principles in every professional domain I can get access to, respecting the hell out of kids and the school environment without apology, and just using common sense we all have access to with regards to the on-going ‘human factor’ that extends far beyond the classroom we work in.

My gut tells me that if you — TMAO — had NOT had that same teacher program in So. Bronx that laid out those 5 “Key Learnings”, you’d have figured out 99.9% of it on your own had your gut/heart been in the right place…as it clearly was and still is.

As for others? Sure, that’s worth exploring.

Do new teachers desperately need a 5 step playbook to lay out guidelines for how to respect students, work their tail off, and stop begging for public sympathy for having chosen the whole “noble calling” professional rhetoric that so many others get bogged down in rather than just pulling the trigger where it counts: taking care of their students day in and day out without apology?

Perhaps. But are you going to really hold up any of them years from now as being a viable peer FOR YOU if they learned their best management game thanks to a training manual? After having read a great deal of your writing, I’d be hard pressed to think you’d be saddling up next to one of them when it comes down to the “finding a warrior” moment when you needed them to be ready to do it for “reals” when your/their kids’ lives are at stake as your career evolves. I think you’d “call BS” pretty dang quick as you sifted through that roll call of teacher peers in a blink of an eye, “classroom management” seminar certificates on their bulletin board or not.

Ultimately, there is a striking difference between:

Wanting to kick to the curb the ignorant teaching ‘professionals’ who long-ago failed to grasp what their kids really needed from them while holding tight to a punish-at-all-costs mindset that fails any legitimate “management” test in schools or not, and also wanting to sure up the backbone of soon-to-be teachers facing obvious uncertainties in a new profession (and quite often their first real professional job in the real world which has its own POV dynamic). I’m waving a flag over your shoulder on both accounts.

VS.

Trying to win the prescriptive call to arms debate that “classroom management” comes in only one shade and can be locked down into a handy-dandy document that will work for all new teachers in all situations they walk into either their first day in the profession or years later in the 18th school on their resume. I’m just not sure I see any of us having the ability to forecast an ideal Venn Diagram of step-by-step options through the lens of a single book of management tricks.

After having read more of your blog entries than I can possibly manage to recall — although I have remained quiet as a commenter because frankly I think you’re further ahead of me with regards to the “achievement gap” issue…and I have more to learn from you on that front than to volley back and forth just because commenting is turned on — I am absolutely locked into the belief that YOU are one of those rare educators that is truly putting his life/ego on the line for his kids first and foremost, day in and day out.

And if I’m even partially accurate there, I have every reason in the world to believe that you’ll continue doing the right things on behalf of your kids until your teaching career comes to an end…and that it would have happened EVEN IF that new teacher institute hadn’t laid out 5 “Key Learnings” of “classroom management” for you and your peers.

Does it sharpen the rhetoric? Sure.

But at the end of the day, the “Key Learnings” end up being nothing more than a poster — next to the “Call Administration in Case of Trouble” sign mentioned in a comment above — of little value if the teacher fueling that classroom space doesn’t have his/her “s–t” together in the first place.

You clearly have it well in place.

Show me a new teacher who has memorized the “Key Learnings” with re: to “classroom management” but fails to be able to make authentic eye contact with his/her kids, and I’ll show you someone that is gonna be applying to law school or transferring to the “grass is greener” school of choice a year later, if he/she isn’t already walked to the curb by the administration or his/her students long ago unaffected/unimpressed by his/her superficial effort to “manage” the classroom.

On the other hand, show me a teacher that would have done it the right way to begin with at the heart and eye contact level — someone reasonably secure in his/her own skin and willing to validate each kid from day one as they try to figure out what it means to teach a little better each and every day — and as far as I’m concerned, they could have written that very “classroom management” training session but probably wouldn’t have needed to spend a dime on the book itself.

Could Dan write that book? NO doubt.
Could you? NO doubt.
Could just about every other solid teacher you’ve ever learned something from or been mentored by? NO doubt.

And will there be an audience of 1st year teachers ready to write down whatever list is published? NO doubt, again.

But no matter how many “Key Learnings” that could or would fill those pages, a scared 1st year teacher is still gonna fail to get what you’re really talking about, TMAO, until they realize that the “human factor” ends up being a hell of a lot more important over time than the oft-celebrated “5 Min Opening” or whatever other laminated posterboard artifact of so-called “efficient” management systems comes their way.

I might be wrong, TMAO, but I’d still bet my next paycheck that your kids would go to the wall for you — vice versa — regardless of whatever list of management techniques were at play. And I’d bet that you’d have learned it in real-time on your own anyways given how you write about your students, as does every talented/innovative teacher you or I have ever run across either as students or as educators.

Now, if we’re talking the “great unwashed masses” that are merely filling in the gaps and holding down union jobs or may at best teach for 1-3 years before jetting for another career, than hey…I’ll be the first one to Amazon link to the book to make sure they at least don’t destroy the kids in the process of treading water through their classroom experience.

And show them to the door right behind you.

***

As you mentioned earlier, we might be a little side-tracked by semantics. If you’ve made it this far, it comes down to a couple of simple things for me:

Quality is quality.
Eye contact is eye contact.
Experience is experience.
Showing up the next day is showing up the next day.
Humility is humility.
Love is love.
Diving into a dumpster to get your kids a free posterboard so they don’t have to run to CVS to spend their lunch money on a school project is diving into a dumpster to get your kids a free…

Ultimately, thanks for your last reply, TMAO.

I doubt you’re putting much thought into whether we’d have much in common out there in the real world, but I have NO problem stating that I consider you a mentor of ideas and trenches in terms of my teaching arc. And I’m looking forward to remaining plugged into your thinking/writing for some time to come.

TMAO: If I needed any other reason to keep reading your blog entries, or any other confirmation that you’re gonna me one of my thought-mentors for some time to come, this response of yours would have locked it down for me.

Zero conflict with any of what you said. Nodding up and down in the affirmative. And definitely having an authentic opportunity to re-think some of my phrasing and mindset. Much thanks.

In particular:

Your paragraph detailing that something like eye contact can swing very differently in different contexts is an Amen-moment. Amen.

My only addition to that is that ultimately — if school serves as any great equalizer or opportunity force on a larger social level — eye contact will end up being one of the key distinguishing characteristics of graduates that assimilate successfully into the larger work force. And as a teacher, we ‘gotta go there’ sooner or later. I just prefer sooner (with a smile of respect shining a few inches below my eyes). Your point, however, is well made and taken seriously.

As you said — and I tried to say earlier as well — “We’re not far apart” on what drives us professionally. Agreed. If anything, I do lack your rigorous insight into the deeper layers of the “achievement gap”, so there is much for me to learn vicariously through you and your links/challenges. Consider me a student with notebook in hand.

I have one question for you as I get ready to eat my Saran Wrapped turkey sandwich and peanut butter crackers for lunch before diving back into more grading this afternoon:

With regards to TFA (Teach For America) and other similar programs, you wrote:

“…these are the people bringing thousands of new teachers into urban classrooms each year on the model that if we bring in smart folks with the right dispositions, set them on the right path, and they’ll figure the rest out.”

I get where you’re going with this. Minus the literal strategies, disposition and intention ain’t enough.

So that makes me wonder about something else. Are our best intentions with programs like these — which do employ a rigorous training programs (with “classroom management” thrown in) given short calendars — still hampered by the fact that most applicants/participants inherently know going in that they are going to ‘jump ship’ within the first 2-5 years of their teaching career? From your experience in TFA, how many of your first-day cohorts really thought that TFA as the beginning of a 30 year career in teaching? And how many of them would honestly have admitted that it was part of their ‘resume’ that would position their other professional options in a year or three? Is the demographic of TFA applicants skewed towards ‘serve’, but for a ‘limited time’?

If this is not the case, are clearly defined “classroom management” strategies the real difference-makers to keeping them a) in the profession and b) helping them succeed in helping their kids succeed? And if TFA (et al) is using such preparation, why do the vast majority of their grads still leave the profession within only a few years or fai l to develop into a quality educator? Are we, therefore, putting too much faith in TFA (et al) to replace what is needed more over time…or is this the best stop-gap measure we have left at this point, getting a revolving door of young teachers serving 2-3 years, if we’re being honest?

I know your ‘answer’ deserves a better set-up question…but I think you know what I’m curious to learn more about from your P.O.V. Ultimately, I am very curious since it was not (in my case) a TFA (et al) program that brought me into an urban classroom or gave me the skills to be prepared to succeed there.

Looking forward to your reply here or via email (christianlong2000@yahoo.co.uk) when/if time allows.

Ben-

You chose the word humiliation and you used it with what seemed like pride. If that’s not what you meant then revise what you wrote, don’t start whining that you’re a poor, picked on new teacher.

I don’t care if you’re a student teacher or a 20 year vet. Using humiliation to control children (and bragging about it) is sad and wrong. Humiliation is not a tool, it’s a refuge for someone who has lost control of their class and it negatively impacts both students and learning.

If you start to use the tactics of a bully then it gets easier and easier to blame the students and resort to more bullying rather than looking at your actions and their influence on things. You’ll never get to the point of presenting the material correctly because you’re so wrapped up in “classroom management.”

Good teaching, presentation, interaction are all parts of the same thing. They aren’t separate. You don’t nail classroom management and move on to worrying about how to present content. Good content/presentation/engagement flows back and forth with each impacting the other.

ben – think you presented a good point in your recent explanation. if the bosses need to see a class under control, you’ve gotta give that to them no matter what it takes.

but i think tom is also onto something. you do sound like you’re taking pride in humiliating students, which – even though hyperbole is your game – you should be careful about. and i don’t know how long you should wait to address your acknowledged imbalance between classroom management and presenting the material correctly. the number one maxim i hold to regarding classroom management is that the best defense is a good offense – if my lessons kick butt and are super engaging then the students are exponentially less likely to act up.

HOWEVER. if we’re not really talking about humiliation but rather are speaking on the use of humor and sarcasm as a way to deal with kids who step out of line, is there a problem with that? just like so many other things that have been written on this thread about classroom management, i think it comes down to an individual style. what’s wrong with a sarcastic comment presented with a smile? it’s a way to humorously remind a student their behavior was out of place while also sending a message to the whole class that we can laugh at our mistakes. if the student who transgressed feels a little bit stung, well, they DID act inappropriately, and there’s a consequence.

Tom: You chose the word humiliation and you used it with what seemed like pride.

There’s a fair amount of projection and assumption with both the part of the writer and the reader. Points of clarification come later, and succinctness comes first.

Majorie: To imagine one of my students, or one of my own children, deliberately humiliated as part of a teacher’s master classroom management plan just sickens me, to be honest.

I by no means advocate humiliating all students or even students who step out of line once or twice, but repeat offenders. I think I used the phrase “belligerently defiant” or some permutation of it a few times in this back-and-forth.

Humiliation is breaking down someone’s pride — I’ve only bothered with it on students who have a disruptive and unconstructive excess of it, but I have used it. If it helps, I did link an example earlier.

Humilation is a fallback, and that’s the extent of my taste for it. Remember the original qualification.

5. Use humilation to taste.

I use humiliation like I use ginger. Rarely, sparingly and when something needs a kick. Ginger’s still in my spice rack and humiliation is still in my bag of tricks.

If humiliation is a strong word, it’s from the connotation and not the definition.

Tom: Personally, I’d get rid of you much faster for humiliating children than for having discipline problems.

That’s a refreshing, laudable and well-reasoned perspective. It’s precisely that because it’s rare, if I’m to believe fellow teachers’ report on the larger American education.

As a new teacher, I adapt to the environment of my school. I’ll reinvent the system and petition the school board after my first two years. Not before.

Humiliation is not a classroom management tool.

It should not be used on anyone, no matter how “belligerent.” Keep in mind these are children. Humiliation is, in my experience*, most likely to aggravate problems with the kind of “belligerent” student you’re describing.

It generally results in two things. One- the student decides you’re a personal enemy and s/he does everything possible to make your life unpleasant. Two- they shut down. Apathy looks like behavior but it isn’t. Maybe it’s all the same to you. It shouldn’t be.

I’m not asking you to “reinvent the system.” This is your behavior, your personal “bag of tricks.” I’m asking you to treat the children in your care with respect. It’s really easy to screw things up unintentionally when teaching, I’d hate to see you do it with intention.

*I’ve worked with “belligerent” students of one kind or another for around 6 years. That’s not a lifetime and I don’t claim to be an expert but I can state a few things without equivocation. Humiliation doesn’t work is one of them.

Oops! I was linking to a comment there. I didn’t expect to initiate a trackback. Sorry!

@Joel – Your blog just got put into my Google Reader. Spent some time browsing around and discovered I need it! I’m just sad I didn’t find you earlier. (TGFSummer and some time to read.) Thank you!