Maybe the reason that Algebra II and the rest are on the “required” list is because they would like more folks doing hard science/sciences in college (which goes back to the desire for more engineers, etc. because we don’t have enough of those, blah, blah, blah).

I remember when they started requiring we take some course with “advanced” math at CSU back in the 1980s (thank god my husband missed that, he never got past fractions in math, but aced the logic portion of the LSAT). Fortunately they offered classes in Social Sciences that could meet this requirement within palatable subject matter. I took classes in political science statistics, which led jobs in public opinion polling, bank finance. Really, you can go pretty far with just a basic knowledge of statistics, and a lot of common sense. I wanted to kick myself when I working in banking because I had relegated most of my basic Algebra knowledge to the trash heap pile in my brain, and FINALLY, the order of ops stuff was useful, etc. when doing Excel formulas.

In my experience there are lots of different math skills that you can have and that are useful. Few of us possess all of them, but most of us have some facility with some of them. My dh can figure out things involving logic (especially if it’s language based) like nobody’s business. My son has a really beautiful number sense, but if it’s language based (a word problem) forget about it. I have a reasonable intuitive feel for statistics and what is meaningful. Would I be more employable if I was an engineer? Hmm, don’t know.

Dan, I you talk about using the online community for teacher support, I have an idea, it would be very interesting for me as an elementary teacher to discuss what/how I’m teaching with high school math teachers like yourself. I have posted a couple pieces recently, and got some nice feedback from Jackie B. Could we think about expanding this (by pimping on your more largely read blog) this summer? Just a thought?

As an elementary teacher I always question my knowledge and ability to think about what makes the most sense in high school. (Interestingly, going the other way is the opposite. High school teachers need to be involved in helping us figure out what to teach to prepare kids for those years.)

I love teaching math and am fascinated by the subject. However, I didn’t take any higher math after high school because I couldn’t stand it then. I think I would have enjoyed statistics much more and it would be a lot more useful to me as a person and as an elementary teacher.

I think Geometry should be replaced by Stats as a graduation requirement, so that Algebra I and Stats would be required of all citizens – those are the courses needed for a minimally informed electorate. Algebra II and Geometry should be for college-bound students.

“Algebra II” is an inappropriate use of coordinate geometry, that kids, if anything, memorize until they are done with whatever rite of testing passage your state inflicts on them. Trig, often inexplicably included in the same year, is an even more disjointed and unmotivated definition-driven exercise in symbol manipulation and rule memorization. Finally we get exponentials and logs thrown in there, which are not algebra, but I guess they have to go somewhere.

I have to teach “Algebra 2 with Trig” next year and am dreading it. It’s going to take my angst about trying to cram quadratics and exponentials down throats to whole new realms of anxiety.

Luckily I will have tenure next year and feel a little more free to be a little more subversive. Read: keep the instruction problem-based and don’t be afraid to leave a little of the more pointless shit out. In New York it’s not necessarily required for graduation, but is required for the test that gets you a “regents diploma with distinction”, that most college bound kids need. Do I think we should replace it with an option for a decent statistics course? Hells yeah. Or a personal finance course, or a math/science history course, or basically anything, because anything would be more useful to most kids.

(Admitted bias – I teach AP Stats as well as Intro to Stat at the university level)…

I fully agree that statistics ranks among the top of the “needed courses” at the HS level. Almost every major (outside of the hard sciences) requires at least 1 quantiative analysis course. I would love to see more of a push for statistics from my department rather than trying to push everyone into the pre-calc>calc track.

However, I would strongly disagree with the removal of Geometry. In my opinion, outside of Stat, Geometry is the next most used math course – anytime you do home remodeling, you are figuring surface area, volume, angles, etc. I would hate to see the houses built by a population with little Geometry knowledge.

Look to the WNCP (Western and Northern Canadian Protocol) in Math. I think that they are getting things in order!

Or, as a follow up on my previous post … why not:

Geometry > Algebra I > Algebra II > (I forget what goes here) > Calculus ?

Joel you state, “Education Trust reports that students who are successful in Algebra II in high school are twice as likely to graduate from college compared to those who don’t.” Remember correlation does not imply causation. There are many factors which contribute to a student being successful in Alg II.

Also, there are some school who are teaching Physics first.

Jackie & Druin–thanks for the comments. I appreciate the reference to Physics First article. Interestingly, their research–looks like a high school physics teachers organization–noted that only about 3% of schools were teaching physics first with most following the common practice of biology then chemistry (with only about 30% of students taking physics–I’m not sure if that’s 30% of the 70% still attending high school as seniors or what).

I understand the fallacies of simple correlation arguments; however, Algebra (to a lesser degree) and Algebra II with national studies seem to hold up as universally significant courses which are more independent of the school (or classroom) in which they are taken. Most teachers I’ve known–and I’ve been working in public schools since 1975–want their own children to attend and graduate from college. My own boys took math all the way through high school in part because I know it puts them in with the group that has twice the chance of graduating from college–for whatever reason.

I believe the biggest single factor for a student being successful in Algebra II or any higher level math class is the teacher they have for that class, and to a lesser degree the teachers they have had since pre-algebra.

AP is another attempt to insure rigor; however, many students don’t have an opportunity to take AP courses–and many of those that do don’t take AP credit. The challenge I see isn’t with the top 10-15% of students (commonly in AP), but rather with getting 60%, 70%, or 80% of the freshman class to successfully understand rigorous coursework such as is found in the vast majority of Algebra II courses in American high schools.

I don’t know why Algebra II would be more consistent than other courses, but I might speculate that there is a fairly consistent use of common text books and content standards–math teachers agree on what consists of Alg II. I don’t think that’s true for statistics, English Literature, U S History, Composition, Economics, Music, Art, or even the sciences.

Certainly it is difficult for a high school to justify why it is that Geometry in room 200 has different standards / rigor / learning results than Geometry in room 201. Here’s a role for common End-of-Course exams.

I do by the way completely agree and value the worth of a quality statistics high school course –well taught with high standards and even higher support — would be for each and every student. These are key real world skills.